Monday, July 27, 2015

Stiv-TV







Johnny Thunders



MY OLD FRIEND Stiv Bator died in early June of 1990 and, as soon as I heard about it straightaway began to put together a benefit for his parents, who had spent a ton of money to get an emergency flight to Paris. Stiv had always been very cool to me and we’d done a couple of interviews over the years and I had spent a lot of time backstage with the Dead Boys and Lords of the New Church, so I wanted to do something special to pay him back – hence the benefit. And we raised a pretty good chunk of change to give to Steve and Marian and it made me feel real good to have been able to pull together this major event in the space of a couple of weeks.
The reason I mentioned this is because one of the things that I set about to do was to collect comments from his friends and colleagues in the music business and Johnny Thunders was on the list. Cheetah Chrome, whose best friend was Bator, was to have written an obituary for us to read at the benefit, but he was such a mess about the loss of his good friend that it wasn’t getting done, so I turned to Thunders – and I’m glad I did, because he sent an eloquent piece (reprinted below). Unfortunately, however, within a year – almost to the day – Thunders himself was dead in New Orleans of a drug overdose, and it was a tragic loss because, judging from the video I got from the tribute he and Cheetah held at the Continental Divide club in New York City, Thunders was in great musical form.
[What can you say about a friend that dies?
I know bureaucracy will say he was a sweet and really lovely guy, but why couldn’t they say that when he was alive?

To me it’s a real BITCH to write an obituary about a good friend. I guess the meaning we’re alive is to leave something behind, and Stiv left us all something in his words that we can all share.
He recorded a brand new LP just before he died, and thank God I was lucky enough to play on it. So he left me with the impression, if I could have any of his traits, it would be his personality and goodness toward others. I wish I could be as kind as Stiv was toward others.
‘When the saints come marching in, When the saints come marching in …’
With all my love, respect and honour,
Johnny Thunders]

Anyway, I met Johnny in Detroit after a show on his ‘La Cosa Nostra’ tour around 1980 or ’81, and I got to talk to him at a small party after the show. This article is the result of that conversation.
In the beginning, Thunders had been ‘drunk and desperate,’ no girlfriend and, ‘All I had was guilt,’ he told me. He’d started listening to music rather heavily and, hearing greats like Eddie Cochran, Gene Vincent, Howlin’ Wolf and even the Shangri-Las, he realized how much he liked it and decided that this was what he wanted to do with the rest of his life. And he did.
Within two weeks he had assembled an all-instrumental Ventures-type group. He knocked around for some time and then he met a bunch of musicians that shared his love for the same kind of music and he began to assemble what would become one of the most seminal underground bands of all time – The New York Dolls. He picked Syl Sylvain, David Johansen and Richard Hell out of the people that he auditioned ‘because they looked the best.’
However, due to pressures and conflicts between strong egos within the band, they only recorded two albums, ‘New York Dolls’ and ‘In Too Much Too Soon,’ (though there have been several compilation albums and bootlegs, the best-known probably being ‘Red Patent Leather’) before disbanding and basically splitting up into several different groups. Johansen went off on his own as an alter-ego named Buster Poindexter (rumour has it that he developed this Sinatra-like crooning act after seeing a local artist called Jimmy Armstrong who was doing the same thing here in Cleveland prior to Poindexter’s arrival on the music scene). Disaffected kids in the States were discovering punk rock through bands like the group put together by Thunders with Jerry Nolan, Richard Hell and Walter Lure, calling themselves The Heartbreakers (coincidentally Tom Petty was also starting a group with the same name in Gainesville, Florida as an outgrowth of an earlier project he called Mudcrutch – but they were two very different kinds of bands), Blondie and the ‘Art Rock’ of Talking Heads and Patti Smith.
So Dee Dee Ramone got the idea for a song and, according to Thunders, Dee Dee came up with the idea, Johnny wrote the music and Dee Dee and Nolan helped with the lyrics as well. The Ramones didn’t want it because, even though they were singing songs about sniffing glue and carbona and wanting to ‘be sedated,’ a song about heroin was a bit much for their style, so The Heartbreakers did it and released ‘Chinese Rocks’ on the Heartbreakers’ infamous ‘L.A.M.F. album (Thunders told me the initials stand for ‘Let’s all make friends’ but more people believe that they really mean ‘Like a mother fucker’). The song has since gone on to become one of the most notorious punk songs that have ever come out of this side of the Atlantic and even became somewhat of an ‘anthem’ for the Heartbreakers, more than one of which, including Johnny Thunders, were using heroin at the time of its release.
Just over a year – and that one official album – later Hell left to form his own band, The Voidoids, who also became one of the seminal early American punk bands and who named the band’s first album ‘Blank Generation,’ coining a phrase that would go on to represent the generation of American punk kids who were disaffected and believed they had a bleak, blank future. The media picked up on the term and ran with it. (In the '80s, the kind of kids who would have been part of the ‘blank generation’ were called ‘slackers.’) This caused the Heartbreakers to disband and Thunders went on to release a few solo albums, the most popular and by far the best being his debut as a solo artist, ‘So Alone,’ a brilliant record that opens with the instrumental ‘Pipeline,’ hearkening back to his love of Eddie Cochran, Gene Vincent and his early instrumental band, before going into a collection of new originals and a few former Heartbreakers and Dolls tracks.
Thunders disappeared for a time – something that would happen on more than one occasion before his untimely death. At one point we had considered trying to get Thunders to come in for the Stiv benefit, but various circumstances prevented us from getting him – not the least being the short space of time we had to promote the show. Some – well, many – believed that his disappearances were due to Thunders sinking into heroin addiction, but in reality he had just taken time away to write songs. There are a number of official and semi-official albums that Thunders released as a solo artist – many more than he had recorded with either of the two groups he had previously assembled.
The Heartbreakers would periodically reunite for a series of shows around the New York club scene, playing CBGB, Max’s Kansas City, Continental Divide and The Mudd Club. The last time they got together was the impromptu show for the Stiv tribute that Thunders and Cheetah put on, which I mentioned above. They had got a new drummer and released a live album, ‘Live at Max’s Kansas City,’ most of which contained Dolls and Heartbreakers songs. A series of reunion concerts had been put together to promote it.
Thunders disappeared again shortly thereafter, once again causing rumours of heroin addiction, only to resurface in the early ‘80s with a brand new band, La Cosa Nostra. At the time I had my conversation with him, negotiations had been underway for a new recording contract – that may or may not have ever come to fruition. He did, however, have an extensive discography at the time of his death and is probably one of the most bootlegged of the early punk bands.
The record was supposed to have a dozen songs, written and produced by Johnny, and was to have major label distribution. The band consisted of Luigi Scorcia, Billy Rogers and the only two ‘permanent’ members of the band, Thunders and bassist Tony Coiro. Scorcia and Coiro had previously played with a group called The Knots before joining Thunders. A single was to have been released on Assassin Records, a label out of the Detroit/Ann Arbor area. ‘Everything will be new material from this point on,’ he assured me at the time.

I asked him about his most memorable moment. ‘I wrote a song called ‘Where Am I Now That I Need Me?’ Joe Cocker took me to his house in Malibu. I was drunk. We played a tape of the song and I fell asleep. He started tearing the tape out like it was spaghetti. Later, I woke up and my producer came running into the room. He says, “Why’d you let him do that? That was the master.” Later, Joe gave me a case of tequila and a limo ride. Next time I saw him, Joe said he had a good time.’
A few final words from Johnny:
‘I don’t like the world as it is. If people do drugs, it should be for a purpose. Not to avoid the world because it’ll still be there. Take them to accomplish things, further your life, write songs, cook hamburgers or whatever.’

SOLO DISCOGRAPHY:
Studio Albums:
So Alone (1978)
In Cold Blood (1983)
Diary of a Lover (1983)
Hurt Me (1983)
Que Sera Sera (1985)
Copy Cats (1988)
Official live and compilation albums:
The New Too Much Junkie Business (1983)
Stations of the Cross (1987)
Bootlegging the Bootleggers (1990)
Live in Japan (1991)
(Posthumous)
Have Faith (1992)
Saddest Vacation Act 1 (1993)
Saddest Vacation Act 2 (1993)
Chinese Rocks: The Ultimate Thunders Live Collection (1993)
Add Water and Stir (1994)
Stations of the Cross (Revisited) (1994)
The Studio Bootlegs (1996)
Belfast Rocks (1997)
Born to Lose: The Best of Johnny Thunders (1999)
Live at Leeds (1999)
Play with Fire (2000)
Endless Party (2000)
Panic on the Sunset Strip (2000)
Live and Wasted: Unplugged 1990 (2001)
Eve of Destruction (2005)

Official singles and EPs:
‘Dead or Alive’ 7-inch (1978)
‘You Can’t Put Your Arms Around A Memory’ 7- and 12-inch
’Twist And Shout’ c/w ‘Boys’ 7-inch live at Max’s Kansas City (1981) [1]
‘In Cold Blood’ 7-inch (1983)
‘Hurt Me’ 7-inch (1984)
‘Crawfish’ 7- and 12-inch (1985)
‘Que Sera Sera (Whatever Will Be Will Be)’ 7- and 12-inch (1988)

Unofficial/Bootlegs:
Hey Man, Where is my Guitar? (1983)
Pipeline (1983)
So All Alone (1983)
Wanted: Dead or Alive Reward $10 (1983)
Cosa Nostra Never Sleeps (1984) [2]
Play with Fire (1984)
There’s a Little Bit of Whore in Every Girl (1984)
Schneckentaenze (1985)
Lucky Strikes Back (1987) [3]
Diary of a Gypsy Lover (1996) [4]
Johnny on the Rocks (1996)
Live Crisis (1996)
Fuck Off Marquee (1997)
Countdown Love (Demos & Unreleased Live) (1999)
The Party Ain’t Over Yet (2005)

Unofficial/Bootleg singles & EPs:
Proud to be Pirate EP (1983)
‘Ain’t Superstitious’ 7-inch (1987)
‘Critic’s Choice’ 7-inch (1992)
‘Daddy Rollin’ Stone’ 7-inch (1996)
‘Life Goes On’ 7-inch (1996)
‘Countdown Love’ 7-inch (1997)
The Fireball EP (1999)
The Thunderbolt EP (1999)
It’s Great When You’re Straight, Yeah EP (2000)
‘The Reign’ 7-inch (Norton Records 2000) [5]

[1] With Jimi Lumia & the Psychotic Frogs
[2] Recorded June 1983, Folkets Park, Södertälje, Sweden
[3] Recorded 7.8.1986 at Nihon Seinenkan, Tokyo
[4] Alternate takes from the ‘In Cold Blood’ studio session; ‘Critics Choice’ - Japanese 7-inch; ‘Live at the Rat,’ Boston 1983; 1991 radio show
[5] 'Zippered Up Heart' (Recorded in 1967)


Stiv Bators (1982)

 

I FIRST MET and got to know The Dead Boys, Cleveland's seminal punk band in 1978 after a show at the old Cleveland Agora. Guitarist extraordinaire Cheetah Chrome now lives in Nashville, drummer Johnny Blitz's last known address was in Canada (though he has recently returned to Cleveland), guitarist Jimmy Zero still lives in the Cleveland area, bass player Jeff Magnum's whereabouts are unknown (at least to me, anyway) and the star of the show, Stiv Bator left this world in June 1990.

After the Dead Boys split up (the first time), Stiv put together a one-off group called The Wanderers before assembling the Lords of the New Church in 1982, featuring Nicky Turner from The Barracudas, Dave Tregunna from Sham 69 and The Damned's Brian James. 

During the course of their career they released three studio albums, one live one and a greatest hits compilation. The following interview with Stiv was done on The Lords first US tour in 1982 and was the first time I actually had a chance to sit down and have a one-on-one conversation with Stiv. I hope you like this vintage interview from 1982. 

As usual, I am not responsible for some of the the content of the chat and the answers he gave don't always represent my own beliefs, but here it is.

WHAT'S IT LIKE BEING BACK IN CLEVELAND?

STIV: Strange. You feel how bleak it is.

I CAN IMAGINE. ESPECIALLY THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HERE AND ENGLAND THESE DAYS. 

STIV: This is a lot like Liverpool.

IS IT REALLY?

 STIV: Yeah. Industrial town on the lake. Dead-end jobs, factory jobs, you know. Middle of a wasteland, sort of. Everybody's depressed, the economy's bad.

EXCEPT THAT THERE'S MORE TO DO OVER THERE THAN THERE IS OVER HERE.  

STIV: Not in Liverpool.

REALLY?

STIV: There's just one or two clubs, that's it.

I ALWAYS THOUGHT, WITH ALL THE BANDS COMING OUT OF THERE ... 

STIV: That's why. Well, look at all the bands that've come out of here ... Devo, Pere Ubu … that's what always happens. It's always the best place for music to start … the frustration … brings out music. That's what usually is best for criteria. Like, look at Brontë, who wrote all that stuff up in Yorkshire [in the north of England and the country's biggest county], and all the great poets … they all come from that sort of bleak … that way your imagination runs … The thing that really fucks your imagination is stuff like TV and that … did you see that thing with Don Webster? [WEWS Channel 5's weatherman at the time and the former host of the historic music proramme Upbeat in the 1960s]

NO, I MISSED THAT.

 STIV: It was real good. I said, 'This is what the music is about, what's punk and all that.' I told him about … protecting against police control and against war and social conditions and also about controlled media. It's like he agreed with the first three, but he says, 'Being involved in media myself I take offence at that, because they don't tell me what to say.' But you're only told the … you only relate the information you're given, so … that's what a lot of people forget. That's the power [Joseph] Goebbles had with the people in the '30s - if it was on radio, it had to be true. That's the power of TV today. If it's on television it must be true.



THAT'S LIKE I WAS TALKING TO BRIAN [JAMES] AND HE MENTIONED THE FALKLANDS THING AND HOW THE MEDIA HOLD BACK THINGS, AND I MENTIONED THE FACT THAT ON NIGHTLINE OVER HERE THEY WERE COVERING ALMOST EVERY NIGHT, AND THEY SAID, 'WELL, WE'D LIKE TO SHOW YOU PICTURES, BUT THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT HASN'T RELEASED ANYTHING TO US YET.' IT WAS QUITE OBVIOUS THAT YOU HAD TO SIT BACK AND WAIT FOR THEM TO CUT OUT EVERYTHING THEY DIDN'T WANT THE MASSES TO SEE. AND IT JUST SEEMS TO BE THAT WAY, UNFORTUNATELY, BUT MAYBE SOMETHING WILL BE ABLE TO CHANGE.


STIV: well, what really happened down there is, there's two factions in the American government right now that are fighting for power. It's the Bolsheviks who were in alliance with the Rockefellers in the early '40s and '50s, through the '60s. They bumped off the Rockefellers … John and the other one … took control of the government, more or less. Like [Secretary of State Caspar] Weinberger's more or less their visible leader in the government. When the assassination on [President Ronald] Reagan failed, that's why [Secretary of State Alexander] Haig had to quit, 'cause the Rockefeller cartel themselves were trying to bring America back to a peaceful nation, where the Bolsheviks are trying to lead America into war against Russia, and it's turning very Christian again. Seeing Billy Graham come back, where he was talking about all the Christian freedom there, religious freedom, and they were trying to tell him he was full of shit. What happened down in the Falklands was, there's a stockpile of nuclear arms that were being hidden, because of the limited arms buildup from the SALT [Strategic Arms Limitations Talk] treaties, in a hollowed out mountainside in St. George's Island.. it's guarded by a cruiser. The Rockefellers and the Russians sent a commando team based out of Argentina down there and they put a cobalt neutron bomb in the top of the mountain. The cobalt bomb's triggered off from a satellite in the cosmosphere. The English armada, since they owned the islands nearby … about two-thirds of them were deployed to stop the commandos from taking the supply. They got there two days too late, so it was all the arms down there detonating … harmless … so, to give it a reason why all the ships were down there … 


THEY HAD TO SAY ARGENTINA INVADED .


STIV: Right, plus, Argentina … 'cause they co-inhabited and also co-governed the islands … so they had to then embarrass the Argentine government for supporting the commando raid. That's why they did that.



THAT ALMOST SOUNDS LIKE THAT MOVIE WORLD WAR III, AND WHAT HAPPENED UP IN ALASKA. I DON'T KNOW IF YOU SAW THAT.


STIV: No.



IT WAS A TREMENDOUS MOVIE. IT WAS, LIKE, THIS RUSSIAN COMMANDO TEAM INFILTRATED ALASKA. THEY WERE GONNA STOP THE OIL FLOW THROUGH THE PIPELINE FROM THIS ONE STATION. ALL THIS WAS GOING ON, AND THE PRESIDENT FOUND OUT ABOUT IT AND HE WAS IN CONSTANT CONTACT WITH THE KREMLIN, BUT HE DIDN'T … EVERYBODY WAS WORRIED ABOUT THIS FIRST STRIKE … AND THEN, EVENTUALLY, AT THE END OF THE MOVIE … IT DID HAPPEN. IT WAS A TWO-DAY FILM, AND IT WAS ONE OF THE BEST I'VE EVER SEEN ABOUT THAT. BUT IT SOUNDS LIKE THE SAME KIND OF IDEA.


STIV: They're trying to condition us very slowly to accept nuclear war. They keep saying it would never happen and then, slowly, they're building you up to accept it. That's in Bible prophecy it's gonna happen, and we're pretty near that time.



THEY'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT THAT FOR QUITE SOME TIME, SAYING, 'IT'S COMING UP, IT'S COMING UP.' I THINK THAT …


STIV: Well, the thing that's gonna trigger it off … it's even in The Bible … it says that it'll be triggered off from the Mid-East, and the way you could tell is, there's gonna be three wars that Israel's involved in. The first one was, I think in '65 or '67 [the so-called Six Day War happened in 1967], when they overcame all the Arab nations … big odds and they won … and everybody loved Israel … then, the second war … and this was told about 2000 years ago … says that in the second war, Israel's gonna destroy an Arab capitol. It's gonna outrage the whole world, and even turn its satellites against 'em, which is exactly what happened.



YEAH, LEBANON.


STIV: And then the third one will be the one which will involve all the major four powers of the world. It says when the bear attacks the …



THE EAGLE …


STIV: The 'chosen people' from the north.



I HEARD SOMETHING ABOUT THE BEAR WILL CONQUER THE EAGLE, BUT THEN, EVENTUALLY, THE EAGLE WILL SURVIVE AND REGAIN POWER.


STIV: It says that Babylon will burn, though … and the way they describe Babylon is a melting-pot of people … a great body of water divides it … which is the Mississippi. It says it's sectioned off into different lands you can tell from the air … you know, we have our states and all that … So, it's very possible that they could set up America to do a first strike on Russia. Russia retaliates, wipes America. America, being separated by two oceans, will drop out most of the fallout and then they could knock out the rest of Russia from Israel and Europe. It says that the 'Whore of Babylon' will nurture and give birth to a ten-headed beast, and then the Antichrist will ride the Beast and burn the Whore of Babylon in a lake of fire. The ten-headed beast …


THE UNITED KINGDOM

STIV: Well, no, it's the European Common Market … which Greece just joined, making it ten [it sounds like the European Union that didn't exist at the time I conducted this interview] … ten nations … and America financed it with all its gold. You notice now that the whole European Common Market is turning on America … even England is selling stuff to Russia.
Yeah, because America's boycott on the pipeline … which I think is foolish. Just because we're 'enemies' with Russia doesn't mean we have to deprive the whole world. We're trying to gain control again right there, as far as that's concerned, as well. Basically, that's all it's boiling down to, because that natural gas pipeline is gonna be able to supply a lot of people [the pipeline WAS built and Russia today is the primary supplier of natural gas throughout much of Europe and the east]. But the USA has to get involved here … it's totally ridiculous. 


THAT'S WHAT I LIKE ABOUT ALL THE NEW BANDS THAT'RE COMING OUT AND SINGING ABOUT THIS … EVERY ONE OF 'EM JUST ABOUT.

STIV: Killing Joke, Theatre of Hate



THERE'S A NEW COMPILATION THAT JELLO BIAFRA [DEAD KENNEDYS] HAS JUST PUT OUT, CALLED NOT SO QUIET IN THE WESTERN FRONT. IT'S A TWO-RECORD SET AND AT LEAST 99% OF IT IS PURELY POLITICAL … DUMP REAGAN, ETC. 

I LIKED THAT JOKE ABOUT TED KENNEDY SLEEPING WITH [ACTRESS] JODIE FOSTER [STIV TOLD IT FROM THE STAGE DURING THE LORDS' PERFORMANCE AT THE CLEVELAND AGORA, BOTH IN THE AFTERNOON DURING THE UNPRECEDENTED WMMS COFFEEBREAK CONCERT AND THAT NIGHT DURING THE REGULARLY SCHEDULED SHOW].


STIV: It about sums it all up.


ALL OF A SUDDEN SHE'S CATAPULTED INTO SUPER-STARDOM BECAUSE OF [JOHN] HINCKLEY [WHO CLAIMED HIS ATTEMPT ON REAGAN'S LIFE WAS MADE IN ORDER TO IMPRESS FOSTER].

STIV: He didn't do it by himself. It's always that lone, crazy gunman who leaves a note behind.



SOMEBODY BROUGHT UP THE IDEA THAT MAYBE IT WASN'T REAGAN THAT HE WAS SUPPOSED TO GET ANYWAY. I MEAN, IT WAS POINT-BLANK RANGE, SIX SHOTS, AND HE ONLY HIT HIM IN THE SHOULDER. A LOT OF PEOPLE WERE THINKING THAT MAYBE HE WAS AFTER JIM BRADY FOR SOME REASON, BECAUSE HE WAS THE ONE WHO GOT IT IN THE HEAD.


STIV: They figured that it was just a six-shot revolver, right? Ten shots were fired … they have proof of that … and the guy that … some guy from Cleveland, named Antonucci jumped on Hinckley the moment after he fired. So that means that one shot went off straight, six went random, and so many people got hit. It couldn't have been. It was impossible. I have tapes to prove … I don't remember all the knowledge of it … but I've got proof that … also, the limo was usually brought right near the entranceway or the exit so he could get in, but this time it was parked 20 feet away, or 20 yards away, or something like that.



THAT IS KIND OF STRANGE BECAUSE HE HAD TO RUN AND DUCK TO GET INTO …


STIV: And then Haig jumped up right away, says, 'I'm in control now,' See that's the whole thing. It's like Reagan and Weinberger are with the Bolshevik regime and with Haig, who's in charge of the … or is the visible political force of the Rockefeller cartel, which is part of that power struggle. Then, when the assassination attempt failed, these tapes, I guess, said Haig would be out by summer. Then, he just quits for no [apparent] reason.


THAT WAS KIND OF STRANGE. YOU HAD SAID SOMETHING IN THE SCENE MAGAZINE ARTICLE ABOUT THE NEW PUNK MOVEMENT AND THAT MOST OF THE BANDS ARE MEDIA-CONTROLLED, OR SOMETHING ALONG THAT LINE.

STIV: It's just they're … a lot of the punk bands in England are just shouting out the same slogans, and it's more bubblegum now. They're not really saying anything, and it's real … it's become homogenised. It would be, like the hippie bands after they come out with their first political statements and that … then the ones that copied just took drugs and talked about the same things. They didn't really … there's nothing behind it.



SO YOU WERE MAINLY TALKING ABOUT THE BANDS IN ENGLAND?


STIV: There's what they call ' Apoc-Rock,' the new bands coming up … it's a term they're given, like Clash lyrics. Killing Joke would be involved in that, Dead Kennedys, us, Sex Gang Children, Southern Death Cult [who became The Cult] … who else? Birthday Party, stuff like that.



THEY'D FIT INTO THAT CATEGORY?


STIV: Yeah, 'cause of their bleakness. You like them?

YEAH.

STIV: They aren't that political, Birthday Party, but they're political in the stance that … their sound and their statements.


WHAT ABOUT CRASS? WOULD THEY FIT IN THAT GROUP? 'CAUSE I KNOW THEY'RE BASICALLY … EVERYTHING I GET FROM THEM, OR EVERYTHING I READ FROM 'EM, THEY'RE BASICALLY SAYING THE SAME THING … THAT ALL THESE BANDS, LIKE ANTI-PASTI, EXPLOITED AND ANTI-NOWHERE LEAGUE ARE JUST COMING ALONG AND THEY'RE SAYING THIS STUFF, BUT THEY'VE GOT NO CONVICTION IN IT, AND THEY DON'T REALLY MEAN …

STIV: Anti-Nowhere League's …


I UNDERSTAND THEY'VE GOT A PROBLEM WITH THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT RIGHT NOW BECAUSE OF [THE SONG] SO WHAT.

STIV: Yeah.

BEING SUED …

STIV: It got 'em up there … made 'em famous.



I PICKED UP THE FIRST TWO SINGLES WHEN THEY CAME OUT. I THOUGHT THEY WERE ALRIGHT, BUT, IT'S LIKE … IT'S QUITE OBVIOUS … I MEAN, EVEN TO LOOK AT THE GUYS IN THE BAND, THAT THEY'RE DOING IT JUST BECAUSE IT'S COOL TO DO … THAT THERE'S NOT REALLY MUCH CONVICTION BEHIND IT. IT'S LIKE …


STIV: They're ex-bikers, is what they are. They're just hanging out ... they're real nice guys. I live near IRS [Records] office in London, and I was there when Scotland Yard raided it to get the So What records. They raided 'em for obscenity charges and things like that, but Anti-Nowhere League are good … I mean, they're fun, but that's about as far as it goes.



WHAT ABOUT DISCHARGE? YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THEM?


STIV: I've seen 'em around, but I know nothing about 'em.

I GUESS THEY KIND OF CAME UP … THEY SEEM SORT OF LIKE A CROSS BETWEEN HARDCORE PUNK AND, LIKE, MOTÖRHEAD. MUSIC OF MOTÖRHEAD WITH THE LYRICS AND VOCALS OF PUNK, AND I KNOW THERE'S A BIG CROSSOVER CROWD IN THERE. PEOPLE WHO ARE HEAVILY INTO HEAVY METAL AND GETTING INTO MOTÖRHEAD ARE STARTING TO FALL INTO DISCHARGE AS WELL, WHICH IS GOOD, BECAUSE IT'S STARTING TO BRING EVERYTHING TOGETHER.

STIV: The only real difference between heavy metal and punk's the length of their hair, really.



THE LENGTH OF THE HAIR AND THE TOPICS OF THE SONGS. HEAVY METAL STILL SINGS MOSTLY ABOUT MOTORCYCLES, FAST CARS AND GIRLS.


STIV: Not the heavy metal in London. It's starting to change.


WELL, SOME OF IT. SAXON'S STILL DOING IT. THAT'S WHAT THEY TOLD ME WHEN I TALKED TO THEM. THEY SAID, 'MOTORCYCLES, GIRLS AND FAST CARS, AND SOMETIMES BOATS.'


STIV: I really like Motörhead, though



YEAH, THEY'RE REALLY GOOD. I STILL HAVEN'T HEARD THE MOTÖRHEAD / WENDY [O.] WILLIAMS THING [THEIR STAND BY YOUR MAN SINGLE].


STIV: I haven't heard that either.



HOW DID YOU GET THE IDEA FOR THE PETER BETER THING ON THE WANDERERS [RECORD]?


STIV: From, the Beter tapes. I've been listening to them for years.



HOW DID YOU FIND OUT ABOUT THEM?


STIV: From a friend of mine.



AND YOU JUST DECIDED TO THROW 'EM IN THERE?


STIV: Yeah, 'cause it's important. He's giving out information, and the whole idea about The Wanderers album was about this kid that discovers the tapes, post-World War III, in a totalitarian state … total police control … and he finds out that everything … since there's no books and that … that everything they're being fed are lies. So he decides to tell the truth and he becomes a TV terrorist. He pumps out TV terror and he puts out a pirate TV station, and he tells the truth to people. It tells a whole story.



SO THE WHOLE ALBUM IS BASICALLY A CONCEPT ALBUM.


STIV: Yeah.



I NEVER REALISED THAT. I'VE BEEN LISTENING TO IT AND I NEVER REALISED THAT ALL THE SONGS WERE TIED TOGETHER … OTHER THAN HAVING POLITICAL MOTIF.


STIV: It starts out No Dreams, which starts the setting of the police state, then it goes into … what's after No Dreams? I can't remember the running order, but A Little Bit Frightening … oh, Peter Beter goes into it … yeah. He discovers the tapes. Then goes A Little Bit Frightening. 'Environmentalists strike out / Police lip-gloss black' … the police force is all gay and they have black lipstick and black fingernail polish. Just things that set up like that. It's a little bit frightening because everybody's apathetic. Then … what's the story after that? Take Them And Break Them. He decides he's gonna do it. And then after that's I Can't Take You Anymore … I forget. Anyway, how the story goes, is big guys being hid by gangs who hide out in subways and that speak in Latin and Greek.



KIND OF ALONG THE CLOCKWORK ORANGE-TYPE OF …


STIV: In that part of it, yeah. They communicate in that … classical languages … since you're only taught working-class stuff … computers. So they hide him out in subways and he gets caught and then he beats the rap and he's free. So he feels like he's beyond the law then. That's why it's … he's ready to snap … he's going crazy. Then, Can't Take You Anymore, he's becoming full of shit and thinks he's cooler than everybody. He's starting to believe his own hype 'cause he becomes a star … like a Messiah to the people … and is early followers who helped him out just think he's full of shit now, 'cause he's starting to come out … and at the very end There'll Be No Tomorrow because … times are ch- … what the fuck … then it goes about the people coming with their torches to listen to him. He's gonna have his first big meeting with the people and give 'em their message. They're all coming to hear him talk and he realises he's full of shit, so it goes …



HE REALISES HE IS?


STIV: Yeah. He finally realises he's full of shit too. Circle Of The Times. On that song, he realises he's all fucked up, so he hires an assassin to shoot him at this rally, so the people never find out so that they don't lose the belief in what he said, 'cause he was right in the beginning, then he turned full of shit. So, before they could find out, he sacrifices his life, so he sort of becomes a Jesus-figure.



THAT'S INTENSE. THAT'S SOMETHING I DON'T THINK ANYBODY KNEW. NOT A WHOLE LOT OF PEOPLE , AT ANY RATE. EVERYBODY JUST TOOK IT AS A POLITICAL ALBUM. ALL THE SONGS ARE POLITICAL ON IT. DOES ANY OF THAT CONCEPT KIND OF FIT IN WITH THE NEW CHURCH IDEA?


STIV: No, that was just a story-line for a movie. I was going to do this movie with Susan Sarandon and … so the … that wasn't the direct movie plot, but it … the lyrics and the songs could've tied in with both. So that was sort of … like why I did that, so it sort of would become a soundtrack for the movie.



SPEAKING OF MOVIES, HOW DID YOU GET INVOLVED WITH POLYESTER?


STIV: I was always a John Waters fan, and then John Waters gave me a call 'cause we became friends in about '77. he used to come up and see Dead Boys play a lot. He really liked it. The Dead Boys was influenced a lot by John Waters films … his sense of humour.



I ALWAYS KNEW YOU GUYS HAD A SICK SENSE OF HUMOUR, BUT I NEVER PUT THE TWO TOGETHER.


STIV: Yeah, we all used to go see Pink Flamingos and Female Trouble.



WHEN I WAS UP IN DETROIT FOR THE RAMONES, WE WENT BACK TO THEIR HOTEL FOR A FILM THAT THEY HAD THAT WAS CALLED PUNK, OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT [I BELIEVE THE TITLE WAS ACTUALLY PUNKING OUT]. IT WAS FILMED IN '77. IT WAS A BLACK AND WHITE FILM AND THE DEAD BOYS WERE IN IT, AND RAMONES WERE IN IT. I THINK WAYNE COUNTY WAS IN IT, AND A FEW OTHER BANDS. DO YOU REMEMBER THAT?


STIV: Uh—uh.



YOU GUYS HAD DONE INTERVIEWS WITH THE GUY THAT FILMED IT [THERE WERE ACTUALLY THREE DIRECTORS]. IT WAS HILARIOUS, THE STUFF YOU WERE SAYING. THIS WAS LIKE '77 AND ALL THE STUFF THAT YOU WERE SAYING IS LIKE STUFF THAT YOU'RE DOING NOW. ATTITUDE-WISE IT'S ALL VERY SIMILAR. AT LEAST WE KNOW YOU HAVEN'T CHANGED IN ALL THAT TIME. THE LITTLE DIATRIBE THAT YOU THREW IN DURING THE ENCORE VERSION OF NEW CHURCH. HOW WELL DO YOU THINK THAT MESSAGE IS GETTING ACROSS TO PEOPLE, PARTICULARLY IN CLEVELAND?


STIV: Well, it doesn't relate to a lot of people in Cleveland because you don;t have that subdivision. Of course you do have hippies that don't like the way you would look and, just like, that whole thing. It's a really big divider. It always was there … you had greasers that were like hippies in the '60s. It's always been there, but it's been …



RACKS AND GREASERS.


STIV: So, it's just a stupid faction related to music, only it's getting more divided and more intense … especially in London … so we're just making people aware of what's happening and how stupid it is.



ACTUALLY, THERE'S A REALLY BIG SUBDIVISION HERE IN CLEVELAND. THERE'S THE HEAVY METAL CROWD, WHO DON'T LIKE THE PUNKS OR HIPPIES. THERE'S THE HIPPIE CROWD WHO DON'T MIND THE PUNKS BUT DON'T LIKE THE HEAVY METALLERS. THERE'S THE NEW WAVERS AND THE NEW ROMANTICISTS THAT HATE EVERYTHING ELSE. AS A MATTER OF FACT, OUT IN LAKEWOOD, [OHIO] AT THE PHANTASY [NIGHT CLUB] I HEARD THEY HAD A CHANCE TO BOOK THE DEAD KENNEDYS FOR FREE AS A BENEFIT FOR AREA ORPHANAGES, AND THEY DECLINED! THEY SAID THEY DIDN'T THINK MANY PEOPLE KNEW ABOUT THE DEAD KENNEDYS AND THEY DIDN'T THINK ENOUGH PEOPLE WOULD SHOW UP, SOMEONE TOLD ME. AND I THINK THEY KNOW TOO MUCH ABOUT THE DEAD KENNEDYS, BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT PUNKS IN THEIR CLUB [AT THE TIME I CONDUCTED THIS INTERVIEW, THERE HAD YET TO BE A PUNK SHOW OF ANY KIND AT THE PHANTASY NIGHT CLUB. SINCE THEN, HOWEVER, THERE HAVE BEEN NUMEROUS HARDCORE, PUNK AND METAL SHOWS THERE]. SO THERE REALLY IS A SUBDIVISION.


STIV: Is it a Romantic club?
 


WELL, MOST OF THE BANDS THAT PLAY IT … ACTUALLY IT'S REALLY THE ONLY CLUB LEFT IN TOWN.


STIV: Electronic?


MORE OR LESS. MODERN DANCE MUSIC, YEAH. IT'S JUST ABOUT ALL THEY PLAY THERE, AND JUST ABOUT ALL THE BANDS THAT THEY GET ARE, LIKE, THEY HAVE THE ADULTS IN THERE ALL THE TIME, WHO ARE REALLY JAZZY FUNK NOW, AND THAT'S BASICALLY THE KIND OF STUFF THEY PUT IN THERE, AND IT'S A REAL SHAME, BECAUSE NOW THAT THE [PIRATE'S] COVE IS CLOSED UP WE HAVE A REALLY BIG HOLE IN THIS TOWN. AND, OF COURSE, 'MMS ISN'T PLAYING ANY OF THIS STUFF. I'M REALLY SHOCKED THAT THEY PUT YOU ON THE COFFEEBREAK CONCERT TODAY. JUST KNOWING THE STATION AND THEIR ANTI-POLITICAL VIEWS, OR WHATEVER. THEY WON'T AIR ANYTHING THAT HAS ANYTHING OBVIOUSLY POLITICAL ABOUT IT. I WAS TALKING TO BRIAN [JAMES] ABOUT OPEN YOUR EYES. IT'S A POLITICAL SONG, BUT ONLY UNDERNEATH. YOU'VE GOT TO READ INTO IT., AND THE KIDS AROUND HERE DON'T. THIS IS THE ONLY TOWN I'VE EVER BEEN IN WHERE PEOPLE JUST START LAUGHING WHEN I WALK DOWN THE STREET. I WAS DOWN IN COLUMBUS MONDAY, AT A DEMONSTRATION, AND PEOPLE WERE COMING UP TO ME SAYING, 'YOU LOOK GREAT. YOU REALLY LOOK WITH THE TIMES. YOU'RE REALLY MODERN LOOKING.' BUT NOT IN CLEVELAND. IT'S SO CONSERVATIVE AROUND HERE.

STIV: Being working-class, they should be against change.



YEAH, I GUESS. … THERE'S REALLY A BAD MEDIA BRAINWASH IN CLEVELAND.


STIV: Sure.



JUST BECAUSE OF 'MMS. IT'S LIKE, THE WORD GETS OUT THAT WMMS IS THE NUMBER ONE STATION IN THE COUNTRY, EVERYTHING THEY SAY HAS GOTTA BE RIGHT. AND ESPECIALLY KID LEO.


STIV: I used to feel like that about Leo and 'MMS, in the beginning, because … growing up here … but, I liked Leo in the very beginning, when he was playing [New York] Dolls, and he was breaking a lot of new stuff, but then it got regulated and I was thinking they sold out, but really, when you come down to it, it's like 'MMS isn't bad when you go across the rest of the nation and you hear other stuff that's being played. 'MMS is still … I understand what happened. When you start with an FM station … just like any … a lot of bands, when they start … they'll be very political and just free and just do whatever they want to do, but once they start getting a lot of money invested in 'em, and it becomes a business, and it goes beyond just having fun, and a lot of people are involved, and a lot of money, things like that, then they have to go with corporate decisions and sacrifice their art. That's what happened to 'MMS when they became a very big corporate money-making station. So it's … then you get to the point, are you gonna sacrifice reaching all those people and becoming that important and staying where you're at and just getting by and keeping that … or reach a lot more people, and then slide something by every now and then, and then you reach more people like that anyway. It's like, what's more subversive: Frank Sinatra singing Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds or Anarchy In The UK? Anarchy didn't reach enough people, but Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds did. And that's why a song like Open Your Eyes is more subversive than anything I've done, because it's being played on AM radio, Top 40. People sing the hook and think it's a love song, yet …



SUBCONSCIOUSLY THEY'RE REALISING …


STIV: They're subliminally singing those lyrics without knowing what they're singing. Them one day they'll wake up to what they're singing and start thinking about it.



HOPEFULLY THIS IS ALL GONNA WORK.


STIV: That's why 'MMS is the same way, you know. People call Leo a prat, but he's really not. He's like … he's gone as far as he can go. He does play a lot of stuff other people won't.



ACTUALLY, IT'S KIND OF A CATCH-22 TYPE OF SITUATION, TOO. 'MMS IS PLAYING THE STUFF THAT THEY'RE PLAYING BASICALLY BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO. I UNDERSTAND THAT.


STIV: Corporate rock pays the rent.



EXACTLY. BUT AS A RESULT OF THAT, THE PUNKS AND OTHER UNDERGROUNDERS WON'T LISTEN TO THE STATION, AND THEY WON'T CALL IN. I THINK … I EVEN PUT IT IN AN EDITORIAL IN THE LAST ISSUE OF MY MAGAZINE [MODERNE MUSIK] THAT, IF PEOPLE WERE TO … IF ALL THE PUNKS WOULD ALL START GETTING TOGETHER AND START REQUESTING STUFF ON 'MMS, MAYBE THEY'D HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO PLAY IT, BECAUSE THERE'S THAT MANY PEOPLE THAT ARE ASKING FOR IT.


STIV: That's the power of consumerism. That's what I was talking about, about New Church. That's what the Born-again Christians do. They had two hundred million viewers on cable TV, and then they told all these TV stations … programmes like Three's Company and Charlie's Angels … they forced them off the air by going to the sponsors and saying we're going to boycott your product … two hundred million viewers … unless you take this programme off the air. And they'd pull 'em, thinking that … they'd tell all the viewers that it was immoral and all this stuff, and they believed 'em. So it's the same thing. The power of consumerism always wins. It's been the young people's most powerful tool. Especially in the 60s when they had jobs and a lot of wealth. Now, because of the unemployment coming up, they're taking the power away, which may be one of the reasons why there's such high unemployment now. They're trying to take away the power of the young.
I know that the government, the system … whatever you want to call it … is really deathly afraid of the punk movement. They've gotta be. That's the reason … that's one of the main reasons why none of the new hardcore stuff is getting on the air, is because it's all so political. 



'GET RID OF REAGAN' … YOU CAN'T BE SAYING THAT OVER THE RADIO. I MEAN …


STIV: Why not? America's supposed to be free.



I KNOW, BUT THAT'S THE WHOLE CATCH OF IT.


STIV: They should have Radio Free America.



YEAH. THAT'S WHY THE FIVE COLLEGE STATIONS IN THE AREA HAVE JUST FORMED A COALITION. WRUW FROM CASE WESTERN, WUJC [NOW WJCU] FROM JOHN CARROLL, WCSB FROM CLEVELAND STATE, WBWC FROM BALDWIN-WALLACE AND WOBC FROM OBERLIN COLLEGE ALL FORMED A COALITION. THEY-RYE GOING TO CO-PROMOTE CONCERTS, THEY'RE GONNA HELP EACH OTHER OUT … THIS PAST SATURDAY, THIS HEAVY METAL BAND PLAYED AROUND HERE, BLACK DEATH, AN ALL BLACK HEAVY METAL BAND, PLAYED DOWN THERE FOR A BENEFIT FOR WUJC AND THEY WERE ADVERTISING IT ON 'CSB, WHICH IS REALLY COOL BECAUSE THAT'S THE ONLY THAT REALLY THE VOICE OF AMERICA'S GONNA GET THROUGH IS THROUGH THE NONCOMMERCIAL RADIO STATIONS., BECAUSE MORE AND MORE PEOPLE ARE TUNING DOWN TO 'EM. THEY'RE FINDING OUT SLOWLY BUT SURELY. IT'S REALLY GOOD THAT IT'S THERE AND, I GUESS, THAT'S SOMETHING THAT THEY DON'T HAVE IN ENGLAND, RIGHT?


STIV: They have Radio Caroline, which is the 'pirate station.' they have Dread … DBC… Dread Broadcasting Company … and that's a pirate station. In fact, there's becoming a lot more pirate stations.

I HEARD ABOUT SOME UNDERGROUND STATION … I DON'T EVEN KNOWN WHAT IT IS. SOMEBODY I KNOW HAS A FRIEND WHO, I GUESS, RECORDED A CRASS CONCERT OFF ONE OF THOSE STATIONS. THINGS ARE STARTING TO HAPPEN. MORE AND MORE PEOPLE ARE STARTING TO FIND OUT ABOUT IT. THERE'S JUST HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS OF BANDS CROPPING UP ALL OVER THIS COUNTRY NOW IN PLACES LIKE … WELL, THIS BIAFRA COMPILATION … THERE'S GROUPS ON THERE FROM RENO, NEVADA … FROM LAS VEGAS. THERE'S A GROUP THAT'S PLAYED AROUND HERE CALLED REALLY RED FROM HOUSTON. TEXAS HAS A REALLY BIG SCENE. WASHINGTON, DC, OF COURSE, HAS A HUGE HARDCORE SCENE. ALL UP AND THE EAST AND WEST COAST AND SCATTERED THROUGHOUT THE MIDDLE OF THE COUNTRY AS WELL.
STIV: North Carolina, South Carolina, Birmingham, Alabama. We played all those places. Florida.



IT'S REALLY GETTING AMAZING. I REMEMBER A FEW YEARS AGO, YOU GO DOWN THERE AND EVERYBODY CROSSES THE STREET WHEN YOU WALK BY BECAUSE IT'S LIKE, 'MY GOD, WHAT IS IT?' BUT IT'S STARTING TO HAPPEN. HAVE YOU HAD MUCH OPPORTUNITY TO HEAR ANY OF THE NEW HARDCORE BANDS AROUND HERE?


STIV: Not at all. I've been away for two years.



I WAS THINKING THAT SOME OF THAT STUFF MIGHT GET OVER TO ENGLAND ON IMPORT.


STIV: Black Flag played there. Dead Kennedys played there, but that's about it.
They're kind of almost corporate, within their own structures … they're almost like institutions … the names. Some of the better bands in the area are little bands … Minor Threat from Washington, DC, Jody Foster's Army [JFA] from Phoenix. There's a band from Sacramento or something called Naked Lady Wrestlers … ex-professional wrestlers. They're like the Anti-Nowhere League of the US but they sound pretty good. The thing that I don't understand is that there's a lot of 14- and 15-year-old kids that are forming those bands.

STIV: See, the only trouble is, like I said before, it's misguided aggression. They're not … they're just beating each other up in clubs.



WEST COAST, AT ANY RATE.


STIV: They aren't really putting it into a movement.

THAT'S THE 'NAZI PUNK' CRAZE THAT'S GOT EVERYBODY UP IN ARMS/ THAT GIVES ALL THE SKINHEADS A BAD NAME AROUND HERE. WHICH REALLY ISN'T TRUE. I KNOW THERE'S A BUNCH DOWN IN AKRON AND THEY'VE GOT THIS PLACE CALLED CLUB HELL. IT'S LIKE IN A DIFFERENT PLACE EACH TIME THAT IT PLAYS, BUT ALL THE BANDS GET TOGETHER … THEY ALL JAM OUT … AND NOBODY WORRIES ABOUT GETTING PAID. IT'S JUST SO THAT THE PEOPLE CAN COME OUT AND HAVE SOMETHING TO DO AND SO THE BANDS CAN GET UP AND PLAY. IT'S A REALLY GREAT SYSTEM, AND MOST OF THE BANDS THAT ARE DOWN THERE ARE ALL SKINHEAD BANDS, BUT THEY'RE SLAMMING OR SOMETHING, AND THEY'LL KNOCK SOMEBODY DOWN AND THEY'LL REACH DOWN AND PICK 'EM UP, WHICH IS REALLY COOL. IT'S THE WAY IT SHOULD BE.

THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH A LITTLE BIT OF AGGRESSION ON THE DANCE FLOOR, BUT WHEN IT COMES TO FLAILING YOUR ARMS AND HITTING PEOPLE IN THE SIDE OF THE HEAD JUST BECAUSE IT'S 'COOL' TO DO THAT … I GUESS THIS ONE GUY, JIMI IMIJ FROM THE BAND ZERO DEFEX DOWN IN AKRON WAS UP IN TORONTO, I THINK. HE WAS WEARING A 'NAZI PUNKS FUCK OFF' ARMBAND AND HE WAS HANGING AROUND SOME OF THE NAZI PUNKS UP THERE, AND THEY WERE GETTING ALONG REALLY WELL – UNTIL HE TOOK OFF HIS JACKET AND THEY SAW THIS ARMBAND AND THEY JUST BEAT THE SHIT OUT OF HIM. THEY'RE SO QUICK TO TURN ON YOU AND IT'S NOT JUST WHERE IT'S AT. THAT'S WHAT'S GIVING THE WHOLE PUNK THING A BAD NAME. THERE'S AN ORGANISATION IN CALIFORNIA CALLED 'PARENTS OF PUNKERS.' THEY WERE ON DONAHUE IN THE MORNING AND SAID, 'THIS COULD BE YOUR KID. DO YOU THINK THIS IS WHAT IT SHOULD BE?' I WAS THINKING ABOUT WRITING TO DONAHUE AND SAYING, 'HEY, WHY DON'T YOU GIVE US A CHANCE TO TALK TOO?' HAVE YOU GOT ANY KIND OF MESSAGE TO GIVE TO ANYBODY?

STIV: I'd say, 'Tell Nora to bring home milk, two cartons of eggs' … it's just the whole idea of what New Church is all about, and it's happening fast. The only way you can get out the truth is through music, since the media's so controlled.



MUSIC IS THE 'VOICE.'


STIV: It's the only weapon we have, and I just like the idea of New Church. You know, start your own gang. Get out to church and stop fighting among yourselves, 'cause that divide and conquer system … we're all the same, going towards the same end, but as long as it's divided, we're never gonna fight it.



WHAT DO YOU SEE HAPPENING WITH NEW CHURCH?


STIV: New Church is a state of mind, really.